IMPORTANT Notice About Defamation and Legal Letters I Get Often

[paradise lost]

In that case perhaps the best thing to do is PM or privately email one another about bad experiences. For instance one could declare one has used a service in a thread and that one will discuss the details privately. That way there is no public defamation and you can still let people know your experiences if it's relevant.

No offence Tenar, but some of the women here have been deeply traumatised by the things that happened to them during pregnancy, labour and birth, suffered horribly, and have had continuing physical and mental health issues. It isn't about "naming and shaming" or "satisfaction" it is about safety and protecting one another by, however quietly, telling the truth about how women have been treated during one of the most vulnerable times of their lives. Forewarned is forearmed.

Bx

[tenar]

Originally Posted by hoobley

No offence Tenar, but some of the women here have been deeply traumatised by the things that happened to them during pregnancy, labour and birth, suffered horribly, and have had continuing physical and mental health issues. It isn't about "naming and shaming" or "satisfaction" it is about safety and protecting one another by, however quietly, telling the truth about how women have been treated during one of the most vulnerable times of their lives. Forewarned is forearmed.

Not offended at all, and of course this happens to be an industry where one's experiences are likely to be few and very important when they happen. I am not in any sense trying to dismiss the bad experiences (or the good ones) that some women have. Equally, this intensity of experience also makes practitioners in this profession (doulas, midwives, educators, obs) very vulnerable to people who want to be malicious.

None of this changes the fact that online, you still almost never actually know who someone is and whether they have a reason to be telling the truth or not. It is not the same as having a face to face conversation, when you have all that other information to go on to judge the other person's state of mind, background and motives.

While I ask for advice here often and expect to continue doing so, I know perfectly well that in the end it is my responsibility to look after myself and to make the most important judgments about people and services myself. I think it is wise of everyone to do the same.

[kahmanya]

I can see the situation from both sides.
An Obstetrician or midwife are there to help and provide a services most ( i am sure all) do not want unfortunate circumstances to happen but sometimes they do - and we do have to face the facts that they are only human so mistakes do happen.
What i find what upsets women the most is when their service provider does not listen to them.
This is what usually gets the negative feedback to these professionals, all they have to do is instead of writing or hiding behind their lawyers and crying boo hoo i am loosing potential clients, they need to take a step back and reevaulate their care, listen and try to accomodate and be open minded a little. This is what makes a great obstetrician or midwife.
The fact that we have some obs out there who are too quick to dismiss a VBAC with out listening to the mothers needs, or to the point treating the client like second class citizens.
I have to say i am profoundly disturbed by the comments some obs have made to some of my friends "like iam sorry you just can't have a VBAC" and they don't even explain why, and they say well he knows best, when they could of very well achieved it if they had a more humble obstetrician who is extremly educated and understanding in the feelings of why women want the birth they want - rather than dismissing them cause of their pompous attitudes.

i have had the most grateful and wonderful experience cause of a kind and understanding obstetrician who does not have a obnoxious big headed complex, and there are many other Obs who are just as genuine and wonderful and those are the Obs we need to promote. Which Belly Belly has done a good job. Kelly has provided great advice and a great service for us mothers

[OceanPrincess]

I really think the best things to do here have already been mentioned, by Kelly and others... write glowing, fantastic recommendations for good care providers and if you have had a negative experience, use PM or some private form of communication to share that.

Note: people can still post about traumatic experiences and they can share in the healing that BB offers without naming their care provider. I've read birth stores and the like where posters have done that, used things like "let's call him Dr X".

We can still experience the support of BB without getting Kelly into trouble.

[CelticMoon]

I think it's disgusting they would go straight to a lawyer without resolving the issue personally in an ADULT and MATURE fashion. But hey if they want to throw money down the tube because they are too scared to sort it out themselves then let them waste their time and money being idiots!

Sorry you have to bare the brunt of it, I think it's important for people who have had really traumatic horrible experiences to warn others. How can they guage possible lost income? How can they prove anyone from the website would of been pursing that Ob until they read that post? How can they prove that any damage was done to the reputation if no one in the BB forums was in the area or requiring OB treatment or wasn't going to go to him/her to begin with?

If I were a judge I'd look at the Ob, laugh, and throw their case out the door in disgust. Probably why I'm not in the legal system I couldn't be bribed by stupidity and arrogance..

[rafida]

HI,

I though Belly Belly was a valuable resource for women when searching for Healthcare professionals for their pregnancy. Many women post questions asking for opinions on obstetricians. If only positive reviews can be posted, without the balancing negative experiences then the forum is biased and unbalanced - and therefore not a reliable resource for women when choosing an Obstetrician.

My previous negative post regarding an Obstetrician has been removed - in fact all negative posts regarding this Obstetrician have been removed. Now all forums only show positive posts for him - and people need to know how bad he can be. How else can people find out about good and bad regarding medical poractitioners. Also aren't these posts only supposed to be lay opinions?

I have posted an amended negative review of an Obstetrician and stand by my posting of my experience. If the Obstetrician wants to pursue this legally, feel free to forward my personal details to him.

Regards

[Schmickers]

Rafida, unfortunately, it is not that simple.

People in defamation lawsuits have a legal redress to attack the forums themselves, rather than you, because we provide the facility to broadcast your negative opinion to the wider community. In fact, the law around this is a grey area at the moment. A large Australian web forum about computers and IT recently won a court case against a software manufacturer that tried to sue them for defamation on the same grounds - the forum succesfully argued the case you are making, that it was not their responsiblity to police the comments of their members. But they had access to a legal team and funding to fight such a battle, and we do not.

I should emphasise that I am saying this next part as myself, not as a moderator. I completely agree with you. It rankles me to no end that we are able to post positive reviews of obstetricians and midwives on this forum and not negative ones, and I too think it often misrepresents the truth. I also think that women deserve the right to be able to speak out about poor care, and I think what we do here is censorship of the worst possible order. But unfortunately, it is also required of us by law.

One point you can keep in mind is that defamation only applies to information posted publically. This forum has a private messaging system, which you will be able to access when you reach a certain post count. I would encourage you to use this system to contact a poster directly if they have asked about feedback and your feedback is negative.

I hope this helps address your concerns.

[meow]

Rafida- you can simply write "I used XX Ob. Please PM me for feedback". Says it all really. You need to make 10 posts before you can start using the PM feature though.

[rafida]

Thanks Schmickers,

OK, I cannot name the Obstetrician etc. Can we somehow post an automatic disclaimer in large letters at the start of each thread somehting like "the opinions expressed below regarding individual practitioners represent only positive feedback, because Belly Belly can only legally post positive feedback. Forum members who wish to express negative feedback can only do so via Private Messages". That way it is clear to forum newcomeers what they are seeing - and then noone gets the idea that all Medical personnel are Gods!!

Regards
Rafida

[kitkat]

I stumbled across this website when looking for some background information on a particular obgyn. I was actually surprised at the positive feedback he has been given on BB, given that he has been criticised by a Sydney Coroner who implicated this obgyn in the death of patient.

It's a pity that we cannot have freedom of speech in this country, and that women do not have access to the complication rates and negligence claims per obgyn, so as to assist them in making INFORMED decisions about which obgyn to entrust their lives in.

Not only are we restrained by the threat of defamation actions by insecure obgyn's, women who have successfully challeneged the actions of incompetent obgyn's whether through civil litigation or through the HCCC or Medical Board, are bound by confidentiality to not discuss the case. It is standard in Terms of Settlement that the plaintiff not discuss the claim.

Beware of what you write on this forum, even through PM, you just don't know who might be at the other end requesting the information.

[Schmickers]

Originally Posted by rafida

Can we somehow post an automatic disclaimer in large letters at the start of each thread somehting like "the opinions expressed below regarding individual practitioners represent only positive feedback, because Belly Belly can only legally post positive feedback. Forum members who wish to express negative feedback can only do so via Private Messages".

Well, that's kind of the purpose of this thread that we're in now, that's why it's stickied at the top of the list.

[rafida]

Originally Posted by Schmickers

Well, that's kind of the purpose of this thread that we're in now, that's why it's stickied at the top of the list.

The problem is that a lot of people google the Obstetricians name and then look at what has been posted on the online forum without every becoming a forum member.

That is how I ended up seeing the Obstetrician I sacked when I was 41 weeks and 3 days pregnant! I googled his name and read his reviews, they were all opsitive so I booked an appointment. I never took it further becasue it didn't seem necessary - I was unaware that only positive posts could be published. I think it would protect the technologically challenged/unaware (like me) to have a prominent warning.

[BloominRoses]

Originally Posted by rafida

I think it would protect the technologically challenged/unaware (like me) to have a prominent warning.

See, I agree with this although I understand BB can't really do anything to resolve the issue without putting Kelly's neck on the line.

Even since becoming a member here, there are so many things that I've Googled that have brought me back to here ie lining drawers is an example I have from today. I think because most of us are the type that will help anyone and only want to see the best for our pregnant or TTC friends - whether strangers or not - it's difficult to think that random people will only see positive reviews or none at all, thereby assuming - rightly I think - that the practitioner in question is great or just not Internet-worthy.

Sorry I'm not really offering anything with this post - I just sat for a minute and thought about it deeply and it makes me sad that we can't be honest, although understandably so.

Bloody legal mumbo-jumbo.