"Enjoy your Labor" by Gilbert Grant is GREAT!

[fatmama]

Originally Posted by Toomanytoomany

Can you not see that you aren't simply discussing your experience, you are putting down the reasoning and the intelligence of women who have come to different conclusions?

No, actually I can't. I think you guys are doing exactly that. Respect has t o go both ways. Re-read the original post. It was perfectly innocuous and merely sharing my opinion.

Just as you're entitled to call it "bias" I'm entitled to have the opinion it is propaganda. I totally respect that some women will choose to have no epidural, but there is no respect from you that some will benefit from them.

Disappointing to my mind. I thought it was a great topic to share info on. And I still hope some women benefit from seeing it on here even if you don't like that.

[Kate07]

There are some interesting reviews of this book on Amazon. Have a read of the 3 star review by Jeanette, quite a detailed review.

[Rouge]

THIS is propaganda and no doubt the line that has caused the most offense and upset here...

The message is - if you want one, do NOT be scared off by the propaganda. And hey if you don't want one, just go your merry way but DON'T spread lies and deceit.

You are quite happy to sit there and sprout how we are all liars but then look at your own words. A woman who enjoys her birth without drugs is not lying. Nor is a woman who has a multitude of intervention due to an epidural.

So whilst this might be your point of view, which you are of course entitled to, you do not need to come here and put women down as a result of that opinion. Just because there are others who do not necessarily agree with this author's work doesn't make them wrong.

My advice to you would be if you wish to promote this book on pregnancy forums, perhaps be gentler in your approach and choose your words carefully because right here right now you have offended more than you have helped your cause.

I honestly don't think you've done this guy any favours, moreso illustrated the lack of credibility of his work.

[HollyM]

I think I'd feel more confident making such decisions by listening to someone who has had both a drug free birth and one with an epidural - who better to ask! Not someone who administers epidurals for a living...

But I agree with you that the book and author shouldn't be criticised unless the book has been read...

[fatmama]

LOL *he* doesn't need the promotion, he doesn't get paid any more as stated.
If women are so anti-epidural they won't read the book and they won't have one. If they are only not having one because they are scared off then they may read it and be reassured. So actually, I did exactly what I wanted to do. I was never trying to convince those soooooo against it they can't see the other side.

Once again, respect goes both ways. My original very respectful post was shown none. Interesting.

[Rouge]

Calling people liars is hardly respectful... And yes it is interesting that you see it the way you do

[Toomanytoomany]

I'm puzzled as to why you think people here are "anti-epidural". I don't want one because I've never needed one. I enjoy drug free labour just fine. I'm not going to buy a book I don't need about a procedure I will in all likelihood never use. I'm happy to read the research (independently of Dr Grant's interpretation) should you care to cite it.

But then I'm a liar who spreads deceit and propaganda, so what would I know, right?

[Hollo]

i think this is just going to go on and on if we all keep responding.

[Toomanytoomany]

Originally Posted by Hollo

i think this is just going to go on and on if we all keep responding.

You're probably right.

[suse]

Once again, respect goes both ways. My original very respectful post was shown none.

Fatmama, it cannot be said much more plainly that your original post was not written in a way that was respectful (whether you intended it to be disrespectful or not). Without exception, you have accused those who advocate for or choose natural birth of spreading lies and deceit, and by referring to the risks of an epidural as mumbo jumbo and propaganda you suggest that those who choose not to have an epidural for whatever reason are credulous and incapable of reasoned decision making.

I do question the assertion that Dr Gilbert gains nothing from writing this book or does not benefit from the promotion of it - my credulity does not stretch to think that he did not receive payment for writing it and will continue to receive royalties or other benefits from its sales.

[Julie Doula]

FM, any woman giving birth in Australia can access an epidural if she wants one, and for the most part, within a reasonable period of time (and any undue delay is considered a failure of care). That's as it should be. A woman giving birth at home, or in a birth centre, who eventually decides, 'stuff this, I want an epidural', can transfer to hospital, and access one.

As a doula, I have supported at least one women (she actually planned a homebirth) in which a timely epidural was the appropriate use of technology, and it helped her avoid a c/s. Every midwife knows that the appropriate use of epidural, in difficult labours, can occasionally help avoid an unwanted or unnecessary c/s.

Any obstetric intervention carries risk - as the seasoned obstetrician who assisted my homebirthing client pointed out to her, as he carefully discussed with her her options (after 50 hours of labour which did not progress beyong 8 cm at home -hence we tf to hospital.)

Women don't need to fight for an epidural. It's on offer. Check out the peri-natal stats and see how many women who give birth in hospital end up having one.

Yet research and experience combine to demonstrate that for many low risk women, continuous emotional support, continuity of care from a known, self-chosen midwife, and access to a deep birth pool to labour in, greatly reduce requests for epidurals.

Australian birthers can easily access epidurals. Women in Australia cannot easily access:
- continuity of care from a known, self-chosen midwife
- midwife-led care by midwives who are autonomous professionals, who not reduced to 'obstetric nurses' and are actually enabled to practice the midwifery model of care, as defined by Marsden Wagner.
- birth pools
- continuous emotional support
- freedom of movement and mobility (this varies from institution to institution)
- privacy (ditto)
- funded homebirth.

How I wish all of the above was as esaily accesible, and actually ON the menu of birth choices for Australian women, as epidurals!

Needing an epidural is a perfectly valid reason to have one. So is wanting one. And you can have one. Usually the anaesthetist is in your room within half an hour of the request.

Try asking to labour in a birth pool. Or for your own midwife. Or for there to be no changes of shift while you give birth. Or for funded homebirth. Or for practicing rights for your two homebirth midwives in the event of a transfer. Or the right to have a VBAC labour in a birth centre.

% of women in Australia who have an epidural: 28%

% of who have a homebirth: 1.7%

% who have use of a birth pool in labour: 3%

FM, you're hardly the persecuted minority being hounded or pressured in any way by the 'tenacious midwife lobby' (otherwise known as consumers who have found through personal experience that there is ample support for the obstetric model of care - but if you want to know about natural birth options, be prepared to take responsibility to find out for yourself, and to fight for your rights.)

Not sure what your agenda is. Have you ever experienced difficulty on obtaining an epidural in the Australian hospital system?

It's not epidurals that aren't getting a far rap, it's natural birth. And natural birth hormones. As explained so well here.

By the way, I really enjoyed the three labours I experienced without epidurals. I mean, I really enjoyed them.

[fatmama]

Originally Posted by Julie Doula

FM, any woman giving birth in Australia can access an epidural if she wants one, and for the most part, within a reasonable period of time (and any undue delay is considered a failure of care). That's as it should be. A woman giving birth at home, who eventually decides, 'stuff this, I want an epidural', can transfer to hospital, and access one.

...
Women don't need to fight for an epidural. It's on offer. Check out the peri-natal stats and see how many women who give birth in hospital end up having one.

...

% of women in Australia who have an epidural: 28%

% of who have a homebirth: 1.7%

% who have use of a birth pool in labour: 3%

... Have you ever experienced difficulty on obtaining an epidural in the Australian hospital system?

Thank you for giving real content to your reply JulieDoula, as that, unlike just opinions and rants actually adds to the discussion.

To respond briefly:

1. Totally disagree that anyone can have an epi, even less within a reasonable time. I have 10 (just counted them off) friends who between them have had 34 children and none of them got an epi when they asked, or anything near it. Many asked for it as soon as they arrived in labour and were yelled at, ranted at, pressured and generally stonewalled for hours. Some occasions they missed out as they got to transition first. Also, there's a shortage of anesthetists in many Australian obstetric wards so c-sections obviously get and deserve priority and people are missing out on requested epidurals. Then there are those who are conditioned to "hang on" as long as they can, then end up getting one on request. Many of those feel they shouldn't have been pressured to hold on but should have had it sooner. I also have 1 friend who is a midwife in a public hospital and who reports to me that for public patients midwives are encouraged to discourage epidurals as a cost-saving measure. Which, frankly, IS a failure of care as you rightly point out. So "ending up" with an epi isn't the only thing that matters, but getting one promptly on request and being fully informed that it is not adverse to have one sooner and you don't have to "hang on" unless you really actually want that. It is a common misconception capitalised on by public hospitals imho.

2. As for the figures - those are not numbers that interest me. And that brings me nicely to my "agenda" though I'd say its more my passionate commitment to full scientific information and choice. I wouldn't matter to me if 100% of births were homebirths (I'm hardly against them if that's what people want with no indoctrination), or if 100% were epidural users, or if 100% were c-sections even. What matters to me is how many were DENIED the birth they wanted, either by not knowing enough, or by actual denial by the people supposed to care for them, or by active misinformation about the dangers/safety.

That goes for homebirths too. I wouldn't want a woman who was a good candidate for homebirth and really wanted one to not have one. But I suspect that happens less than being denied epidurals precisely because so many want epidurals - most, if not all - who ask for an epi get less than they ask for and are entitled to.

And yes, since that would be my choice (even if I didn't need one) I care about women being denied that especially. I know how wonderful they can be.

Thanks for your post anyway. I really think the rest of the thread has not engaged with the real issue and has engaged in mere ad hominem attacks. I respect your different opinion on what an ideal birth is, but I don't think we actually want anything much different for women. I'm just *more* concerned with the denial of epidurals which I'm entitled to be. That doesn't mean I want women to be denied homebirths. They're not incompatible.

[Lady-bug]

FM-Do you have any stats for women who 'are being denied' an epidural? I was given one as soon as I asked.

[MantaRay]

I never actually asked for one. The mw and ob talked me into it. I have discovered that you are not in any position to make decisions when you are in labour so you just go along with things.

[Lady-bug]

Very true MantraRay, the only thing my mw said to me was "but you said you didn't want one, are you sure?" I ended up having two, both didn't work!

[fatmama]

Originally Posted by hippiemummy

FM-Do you have any stats for women who 'are being denied' an epidural? I was given one as soon as I asked.

No, and they aren't even collected! Isn't that terrible? And denied or grossly delayed would be the accurate measure with grossly delayed being more common anecdotally. I've actually talked with many more mums than the 10 personal friends I mentioned, but that's a fair anecdotal sample (across 2 cities) of women who got less than they asked for in the epidural dept.

I got huge pushback from the nurses and I'm not even counting me because it wasn't an Australian hospital. They look at you like you're a leper. Then they say "ooooh not yet dear you can hold on" then they patronise you, then they say "soon" and finally when I (and several women from my moms group later told me too) say we'll go outside the LDR and make a fuss they "give in".

Sadly this is not uncommon. It may or may not be x% of epidurals given, but frankly ANY experiences like that are totally unacceptable and I know personally of many many more than several.

[fatmama]

BTW I find the "you said you didn't want one are you sure" unacceptable also, in any situation unless it was because you needed to be informed that IF you wanted one later it would no longer be available due to the shortage of anesthetists. Then I could see how checking would be sensible (but still bad care to have the shortage in the first place).

But I have never known someone personally who was pressured into one. Only the reverse. Maybe I just mix in differerent philsophical circles to you, but you surely can't deny that if there are at least a dozen women (and more than double that in pregnancies overall) I know who in the last 5 years have had the denial/delay I described that is appallingly bad care. I would really like to know if you can with a straight face say that is not appalling.

[Lady-bug]

That suprises me, I haven't heard of any woman being denied one. Sorry you were treated this way at the hospital.