"Enjoy your Labor" by Gilbert Grant is GREAT!

[fatmama]

Great, so am I. That's why I provided the info that I thought was relevant to this topic.
Congratulations, we both want women to make fully informed decisions. FULLY (italics) informed. Right?

[doudou]

can you point me in the direction of some of the cited studies in the book i would like to look at the studies im not interested on his spin of the studies i want to read them my self.

[fatmama]

Well I don't think that's very nice, after all he's more qualified than you to interpret peer reviewed obstretic anesthetics journals frankly. But I'm not going to sit here at 11pm and type out the bibliography. I'm sure you can find a copy in a library. Enjoy! (your labour)

[doudou]

i do hope you get a nice profit for trying to sell his book..

if you cant even refer to some of the studies unlike some that have been posted in here against your opinion then i doubt its worth reading.

im not pregnant

[christy]

How do you know he's more qualified?

I've studied anaesthetics in my job. I've written reports, had exams, and had to teach anaesthetics to students. How do I know he is more qualified to interpret these reports than I am?

[Trillian]

Fatmama, you are walking a very fine line at the moment and you are bordering on not only being offensive, but you are also flaming other members.

Here at BellyBelly we do encourage women to take a natural approach to childbirth and educate about the risks involved with certain aspects of birth, such as pain relief, but we are also suportive of a woman's right to choose and that includes the use of pain relief in labour. I'm sorry if you think that there is a 'party line', but that's the way the majority of this community think and if you feel that we are pushing our own agenda then you are wrong.

This thread is being watched very closely and if this antagonistic behaviour continues then it will be stopped.

[doudou]

Product Description
Enjoy Your Labor is an informative and easy-to-read book that contains everything an expectant mother needs to know about state-of-the-art options for pain relief for labor and delivery: epidurals and spinals. Enjoy Your Labor gives readers the facts about modern pain relief techniques. It is the only book that takes the fear, mystery and guilt out of epidurals and spinals. The author develops the premise that administration of medication to relieve labor pain is a sensible approach, and he explains the reasons women can and should get an epidural before the severe pain of labor starts - if they decide they want one. The refreshing view presented in Enjoy Your Labor regarding the timing of the epidural challenges the conventional wisdom, and is a radical departure from current approaches, where women typically delay getting an epidural for as long as possible - until the pain becomes unbearable. Enjoy Your Labor empowers women with the knowledge they need to help them make an informed choice about pain relief for childbirth. The author encourages readers to advocate for themselves, and to carefully consider and discuss the management of their labor and delivery pain with their health care providers before labor begins.

About the Author
Dr. Gilbert J. Grant has been Director of Obstetric Anesthesia at New York University Medical Center since 1992. He is also a faculty member of New York University School of Medicine, where he is an Associate Professor and Vice Chairman for Academic Affairs in the Department of Anesthesiology. Dr. Grant earned his MD degree from the University of Michigan Medical School in 1982. He then relocated to New York City, where he completed an internship in Obstetrics and Gynecology at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital before moving to New York University Medical Center where he completed a residency in anesthesiology. Dr. Grant has published numerous scientific papers and chapters for medical textbooks, and he lectures at educational institutions and scientific meetings in the United States and abroad.

this is what i found about the book.. seem like the usual bollocks that they have for "expectant" mothers

[christy]

LOL of course! He's a professor of obstetric anaesthesia..... so totally unbiased then

[MantaRay]

This might be just me, but the title makes me cringe and the bit about "before the pain becomes unbearable" is just plain old scaremongering. Pain during labour is not unbearable - even without drugs. It might be uncomfortable, but it is bearable. Otherwise how would all us women who have labours that are too quick for pain relief survive? It is our fear that the pain will be unbearable that leads us to look at pain relief options. And who says you can't enjoy a drug free labour - I did. Far more than my epidural labour TBH.

[Schmickers]

Hi there Fat Mama, and welcome to the forum. We welcome lively debate here on all topics, as long as you stick by the forum guidelines. Be aware that this is predominantly a natural parenting and birth forum, but we welcome comers from all walks of life and all ideologies.

Originally Posted by fatmama

The picture is NOT what the natural-birthers like. It shows there are actually dangers to NOT having an epi for some women (I happen to be one! we do exist!). And it shows that they do not have the effects that they are often damned with, unless administered incompetently.

My first response to this is that I'd suggest that it may be challenging, depending on where you give birth, to find an anaesthetist who is "competent" - safe, skilled, and experienced - in administering epidurals. The problem being I have yet to meet the anaesthetist who said "Excuse me, I just don't feel confident doing this. Perhaps another form of pain relief might be a better option?"

I haven't read the book myself. However, I know for a fact that I can probably find a book to support just about any position I want to. It doesn't mean that the book is right. If this guy really has enough evidence there to overcome the large body of research that confirms the risks associated with epidural, then it must be one hell of a book.

Originally Posted by fatmama

if you want one, do NOT be scared off by the propaganda. And hey if you don't want one, just go your merry way but DON'T spread lies and deceit.

Well, I'm not sure about anything else, but as a nurse, I don't spread lies and deceit; I allow myself to be guided by the evidence. As I said above, if he has enough compelling evidence to overcome years of research to the contrary, I hope he's been nominated for some sort of award.

As far as this forum is concerned, we don't spread propaganda, and we don't lie. We're actually quite a nice bunch, if you take the time to get to know us. All we do is share - share our stories, our experiences, about birth, about families. Some of those stories are about epidurals. Most of them are negative. That's not to do with attempts to decieve or lie; it's a function of how we experience our births.

Originally Posted by fatmama

This is a book that really changed the way I saw epidurals. I used to buy all the mumbo jumbo, you know, it slows labour down, leads to c sections blah blah

*puzzled* Are you marketing this book, or recommending it?

[fatmama]

I am glad it is being monitored.
I have in no way been offensive. Others, I believe, have been.
I have no ties to Dr Grant other than having been a patient of his by chance.
I found the experience liberating. The pain WAS unbearable to me, if unbearable means "wish you were dead" kind of pain. Maybe some women never feel that kind of pain but I assure you many do, and would be grateful to know this is safe, and much safer than other medications that "seem" less invasive such as pethidine etc.
I am confident that some women out there who may read this would like to hear that story. And I don't feel bothered one bit that some of you don't want that message heard.

I would genuinely, truly, love to hear an honest on-the-level taking me seriously kind of response to why midwives aren't biased but Drs are. I really would. I have never heard an attempt at that even, and I'm sure someone out there could make an argument even if I disagree, it disappoints me no one ever tries. There must be some subliminal reason so many believe a midwife/non Dr and won't believe a Dr when its on exactly the same point. I can't relate to that and I admit it. Just can't relate.

I'm glad its stimulated discussion though I wish that had been dealt with. So many responses I have to turn off notification or I'll never get anything done! And my DS will wake any second...

Have a lovely night!

[jackrose]

FWIW, I enjoyed my labour!

never advised out of an epidural by a midwife....

[AliBaby]

Interesting......

You might be trying to simply inform women about this book but maybe you should explore the site a bit more before you make judgments and pressume what people are like on here because you would find that nobody presures anyone or judges anyone for the decisions they make for the birth of their own child.

Just to give you an idea about what BB is like....

I have never felt pressured one way or another about anything on this site (esp not pain relief).

After recently sharing my pregnancy and birth journey on here and gaining advice from the wonderful members of this community I felt like I had the confidence and the information to get through childbirth. I didnt have a birthplan and certainly didnt go into labour thinking "I will not have drugs"! I had an open mind and knew that I was informed enough to make decisions either way. Well it turned out that I could do it without drugs and yes it hurt and I think I requested them to "suck it out of me" with the vacum at one stage but with the support of the midwives and my DP I did it without intervention. The midwives had nothing to gain or lose by me having an epidural. They would still have a job either way.

I am not saying that this is the case for all women but let me tell you and anybody else reading this that after having a gf tell me that I needed an epidural I was petrified. It wasn't until I came to this site and explored it that I realised this wasnt the case but if needed so be it (no judgement).

There was recently a poll taken in regards to what intervention was needed (if any) if you had an epidural. From my last look at this poll it was about 60% needed further intervention. These results speak for themselves I think.

[suse]

Fatmama, as well as research that I had undertaken on my own whilst pregnant, the information I received was provided by the obstetric department at the hospital that I birthed at. It provided information on all of the available analgesia and included detailed information on the benefits and risks of each type of pain relief, including (amongst other things) the increased likelihood for reduced contractions or stalled labour requiring oxytocin supplementation and an inability to push as a result of loss of sensation due to epidural, which can result in instrumental delivery or caesarean section. It is not just a myth perpetuated by the 'midwifery lobby'. Much of the research to support this is performed by obstetricians and published in obstetrics journals.

To answer your question about bias, some obstetricians support a medicalised approach to birth because they are, after all, trained doctors, and their methodology is shaped by medical training. They can see birth as a process requiring pain-relief because pain management is something that doctors are trained in - the see pain as a symptom of a problem and seek to avoid it where possible. They are also specialists who are trained to manage the problems and complications associated with pregnancy and births, so in some ways they are like a nuclear physicist at a barbecue - at an uncomplicated birth they may apply their specialist training to an extent that is not necessary. Whereas most midwives (and some obstetricians) encourage as little intervention as possible because it has been demonstrated that in an uncomplicated birth, the outcome for both mother and child is better. Funnily enough, the main agenda of either faction is to ensure the best outcome for birthing women, yet a much better outcome can be achieved when these stakeholders see their roles as complementary rather than oppositional. Disregard for the benefits of either role can be detrimental to outcomes and to choice.

Certainly there are people who do benefit from an epidural (and FWIW, I was one of them, although I had hoped to birth without intervention I was one of those who did benefit from it), but this does not negate that there are risks to both mother and child.

[Lady Zaidie]

I would say that an epidural properly given is fantastic. It allows you to still feel contractions, only less intensely, and it allows you to know when to push and feel the birth canal perfectly.

However, even the midwives were surprised my first epidural was perfect! That rarely happens. And knowing that they still pushed me into it. So why push it at all, especially when I wasn't in pain and was all relaxed and enjoying labour (well, while the midwives weren't bossing me about at any rate)?

Oh yes, and to get the "perfect" (which should actually be standard) epidural, you need to be relaxed. I was told off for being too relaxed, which is why I wasn't given pethadine. Most women who need one because of "unbearable" pain (try having my Obs then telling me about pain in normal labour!) aren't relaxed so it's the wrong time to give it. So that is a good argument for an epidural in early labour. Although I would never recommend one as standard practice because it's drugging up your body and it doesn't hurt (I know, I didn't give birth so can't comment, but having a baby half-way down the birth canal didn't hurt so I can't see that the last few inches would have been too bad) and because these drugs can kill your unborn baby. They did mine.

I did not need more intervention because of an epidural. I needed more intervention because of an incompetent hospital staff, from the moment I got in there until the moment I left just over four days later. And that's why I'll be freebirthing should I ever have another child: not because I don't want drugs, but because I don't want them pushed and I don't want to put up with midwives and obstetritians again!

(BTW, I don't trust midwives OR doctors, only my own body! Even though the name Dr Gilbert does inspire confidence in me, his last name is Grant and not Blythe so I don't fully trust him. I'm more on the intervention-free side than the intervention side of the argument.)

[Hollo]

i guess the point to all this is, if you have taken steps to research both positive and negative effects of all aspects of labour and birth and are knowlegeable then you have done all you can to make the right choices for yourself and your baby. i think maybe this would have gone down better if put in a more respectful, less judgemental and friendly manner... ??

[fatmama]

Originally Posted by Hollo

i think maybe this would have gone down better if put in a more respectful, less judgemental and friendly manner... ??

LOL what's disrespectful about sharing my reaction to the book and my experience? I think you all just feel threatened that someone doesn't share your view. I don't, I think its great you enjoyed yourselves. But many women don't, and many, like me, would benefit from Dr Grant's information.

I've never found such a closed club kind of forum where the alternative view was so irrationally demonised. I think that's sad but its your prerogative. I hope to find an OB for this pg that supports a repeat of my wonderful peaceful birth last time.

[Toomanytoomany]

LOL what's disrespectful about sharing my reaction to the book and my experience?

"Propaganda," "lies and deceit," "closed club," "irrationally demonised," sarcasm, using all-caps (and then responding sarcastically when you are informed that's read as shouting on the interwebz).... You're just being rude, and people have actually been quite restrained in their responses.

The shame is that this is actually an interesting topic for discussion if you'd put down your cudgels for one moment. Can you not see that you aren't simply discussing your experience, you are putting down the reasoning and the intelligence of women who have come to different conclusions?

I don't think anyone here has actually said that epidurals aren't a valid choice for many women for a variety of reasons. I think you'll find many members here at BB have opted for them - and I doubt a single one of them has been flamed for their efforts.

Every single medical procedure, from epidurals to lancing a boil, has risks, and these must be weighed against the benefits. For some, the risks are far outweighed by the benefits. For others, less so, and women decide that for them, it's not a rational choice. Why this is a cause of such distress for you is a little perplexing.