How do I keep doing this? (long rant)

[Tish]

ARGH!! I love my little boy, but he is really testing my patience at the moment.

Why oh why won't he sleep? This has been going on for 8 months now (since he was born), and I know it can't go on forever but it just seems like it will.

At night he's taking about an hour to go to sleep, with us going in every 5 mins to lie him down again and pat him. Once he is actually asleep he's waking up every two hours, sometimes every hour.

What's killing me most is his day sleeps. He is so frantic and overstimulated, that even in a warm quiet darkened room his breathing is fast, and his eyes are darting around the room while he scratches at the sheets, plays with his blankets, plays with his hands, rolls around, stands at the end of the cot. It's like I have an 8 week old again - I'm settling for an hour (or more!!!) to get him to sleep for 30 mins sometimes less twice a day.

So I started swaddling him again - in cot sheets - to keep him confined. Now he struggles against this, but when he's not swaddled I don't even get to the door and he's standing up at the cot side.

He has 2 teeth coming through, could this really all be about the teeth? He's happy as larry until I try to put him to bed. Even then he's not really crying like he's in pain, just being a busy pants - crawling around etc. He mostly starts to cry just when I come in kiss him and lay him down, or even just put him in the cot.

We've got a good bedtime and daily routine - what gives!!! We had some good weeks after he started crawling, but that's all stopped now. Yesterday I even resorted to going from room to room to get him to follow me so he would get tired.

I so don't know what to do any more! Please someone tell me this is just a phase that will pass of it's own accord. I'm so utterly exhausted - my whole day just falls apart if his sleeps are out of whack and I can feel myself getting to that point again where i just want to scream "GO TO SLEEP!!!!!!". I know how ridiculous that sounds. I also today just let him stay awake (since 7.30 this morning he's had about 3/4 hour sleep) because after nearly 2 hours sitting beside his cot settling I just didn't have the energy to "argue" anymore.

I feel like I need a week "annual leave" and he's only 8 months old - I'm such a light weight

Does anyone have any tips on calming down an overstimulated boy? Or even immobilising him a bit so he'll calm down and go to sleep.

Sorry for the long rant.

Tish
xx

[missymoo84]

hugs hun I find if I don't either feed Ash to sleep, or wrap him (in a cot sheet also) he will stand up and wont sleep. Have you tried Hylands Teething Tablets? When they are teething this stuff is awesome.

Just remember that it doesn't last forever

[marcellus]

Oh Tish, that sounds soooo much like my DS.
First thing I would reccomend is don't keep trying to get him to sleep if it doesn't work after 15 minutes or so. Just give it up, go do something else for a while and wait till your next window of opportunity. Seriously - trying for hours to get him to sleep when he's only going down for 30 minutes is TORTURE!
Second, for us, after 6 months or so the whole 'put them down at the first sign of tiredness' didn't work any more. My boy didn't care if he NEEDED sleep, he would only go down once he was sooooo exhausted he just couldn't stay awake anymore and so was WILLING to sleep.
Few other things to consider.
What time is bedtime? Sometimes bringing it forward can help.
How long is your bedtime routine. Sometimes they need quite a long wind down.
You're not alone (as cold comfort as that is!) and yes, one day it will get better...

[aussienic]

Originally Posted by marcellus

First thing I would reccomend is don't keep trying to get him to sleep if it doesn't work after 15 minutes or so. Just give it up, go do something else for a while and wait till your next window of opportunity. Seriously - trying for hours to get him to sleep when he's only going down for 30 minutes is TORTURE!

Totally Agree with this.

I don't really have any other advice.. I hope he starts sleeping soon. It is just so exhausting when they don't sleep well

[Kristin27]

Do you have a wind down routine before every nap and bedtime?

That helps heaps with DD. Before every sleep is an exact sequence of events so she knows whats next, and it forces her to stop playing so she can relax and get sleepy.

Into sleeping bag and given her dummy
Read a book or two
Into her bouncer to watch me cook, watch some Dora the Explorer or watch whatever is happening in the house
Into her room for a cuddle and song
Into bed

And YES it will pass! Hang in there!

[Curly]

My DS didn't sleep through the night till 18 months old and not regularly until after the age of 2....sorry!

First things first...if he's not asleep in 20 minutes he isn't going to go to sleep. Don't waste your time, get him up and try again later.

How much do you take him out during the day? I found that on the days I had played with DS outside, taken him for a long walk in the pram etc he did sleep better at night. Still do, actually.

Have a wind down routine...bath, stories, quiet music playing in his room. Basically the same thing every night.

Is he too warm? My DS is a very hot sleeper. He is wearing summer jarmies in the middle of a Melbourne winter.

What happens if you leave him to crawl all over his cot for a while? If he is happy playing in there I would leave him and see if he winds himself down. My DD does this...mucks about in her cot for a while and then gradually gets very still and drifts off with her music playing (Music for Dreaming CD). Maybe he just needs to fidget for a while?

And...you are going to hate me...for your own sanity you also need to accept within yourself that your DS is not a good sleeper. He is what he is and you do have to roll with it to a certain extent. The day I decided to change my thinking was the day I started to become a much happier mummy. My DS was my DS. I threw the routine I "thought" he should be on out the window and just let him stay up till he was obviously tired. DH and I learned to be just..."whatever." It was so much easier that way. And we found a routine that actually worked by doing that - DS found his own pattern and we scheduled around that.

DS has always been a kid that hasn't needed as much sleep as his friends. He was the first one to drop back to one nap a day (at 10-11 months). He was the first one to drop his day naps completely (at 18 months) and at nearly 3, is still the only one not napping during the day. And I am still "whatever...that's my son."

I can't say my attitude has been all peace and light though. My friends with their nearly-3-year-olds who seem to be on the verge of dropping naps are tearing their hair out and complaining about how tired they are, get very little sympathy from me I'm afraid. I still get attacks of resentment from time to time that they get free time during the day and have had it for so long and I haven't. And I just roll my eyes when people claim that they would kill themselves if it wasn't for the nap.

Believe me, I know how you feel. I have been there. I got so angry and resentful and I was so exhausted and I cried over my DS' sleeping. DH and I snapped at each other because we were so sick of the tedium of spending hours up in DS' room only to give up and bring him back downstairs after over an hour of patting, rocking, bouncing, whatever. I couldn't plan much because I never knew how his sleeping was going to go and it was sooo frustrating spending hours getting him to sleep for such piddling amounts of time. ANd some days I was just too exhausted after a bad night to contemplate going out anywhere. I worried so much about what I was doing wrong, all the other babies were sleeping, why wasn't mine?

It will pass, I promise. DS now goes to bed at 6pm and sleeps through till 6am and DH and I have our evenings to ourselves. You WILL come out the other side.

[kelebek]

Originally Posted by Tish

he's only 8 months old - I'm such a light weight

Please don't be so hard on yourself as a fellow mumma of a very bad sleeper I feel your pain. Marcellus and aussienic are right it is TORTURE when you try so hard for them to sleep for such little actual sleep time. We started wrapping DS again in a cot sheet from about 10 mnths until just recently so I would definitely give it a go. I swear if DS would just stay still for 30 seconds he would be asleep I'm sure you know what I mean

Like Marcellus we now put DS down when is exhausted cause he just won't sleep when we hav tried to put him down when he starts to show tired signs. I have tried too many times and still dread every sleep time - at least it is only 1 sleep time now so I don't feel like such a failure.

For me at 15 mnths he still wakes too many times over night, I also thought that surely by now he would be sleeping through... but no. I find the more I stress about it the worse it all seems, when I just go with the flow and accept that isn't always going to be like this the better I cope.

I found that first year really, really difficult. I always thought that the newborn/baby stage would be the best but for me toddlerhood is wonderful even with the disturbed sleep

[Curly]

PS: I forgot to mention that maybe he finds your presence in his room stimulating. My DD is a brilliant sleeper but she simply cannot sleep if Daddy or Mummy are in the room with her. She needs to be on her own to go to sleep. It's been quite strange for DH and I to get used to - that we give her some cuddles, put on her music and leave her to get on with it. (NB: I don't believe in control crying, she does not cry herself to sleep at all, she just plays in her cot for a bit and then gradually winds down. She wears a sleeping bag for all her sleeps so kicking off the covers is not an issue).

DS used to scream blue murder if we tried doing this and even now one of us still has to lie down with him while he goes to sleep at night - he needs the security of our presence.

Sometimes DD might need us to pop back in to pat her bum for a minute or so if she's a bit overtired and having trouble drifting off completely but we have to be careful to time it right because as soon as she sees us we get big smiles again.

[anna]

I think a long wind down would be my suggestion too. I always pick DD up from playing when she starts looking tired and carry her around until she starts rubbing her eyes. I find if I get it right she goes down a treat, without even a grizzle. BUT if I don't wind her down like this she cries until I feed her to sleep!!

I have always found the whole sleep thing a real pain. I also had/have feelings of failure when she doesn't sleep, but as others have said, as soon as I just think "whatever" and let it go, the better I feel...its seriously not worth getting yourself down about (I know this doesn't seem to help when you're exhausted and angry). I try to tell myself that I might not be able to change DD's sleeping yet...but the one thing I can change is my feelings towards it.

My DH said to me the other day "sleep is not a metric"...meaning it shouldn't be a measure of how successful we are as parents, how "good" our baby is or how "good" our day went. I found that really helped...sleep is important I know, but it shouldn't be the ball breaker for your feelings towards yourself and DS.

Sending you big hugs!!!!

[SammyRo]

We had huge sleep issues with DD from about 6months to 10months.
To help at night, we moved bedtime forward to begin with from half 9 to half 8, then half 7 and now she's most often in bed at half 6. We then put in a proper bedtime routine - dinner at half 5, bath, cuddles, bit of a play in her room, then story, BF (or bottle when we swapped to that) then in cot, awake and pat till she went to sleep - this used to take an hour - now its's nowhere near as long. Once we did this, her wake-ups during the night also dropped - it went from 3-4 times per night, down to 1-2 and now at 13months, she is sleeping thru probably 3-4 nights a week ( i never thought that this would happen!) Mind you, she is an extremely active bub, and is already on one day sleep only.

However, day naps were much harder to get sorted - your DS sounds like DD in being a very alert bub. We tried a routine (shorter version of her night time, minus the bath) but no matter what I did, she would still be screamin in her cot and would not calm down. I ended up extremely stressed by this (not helped by some of the nurses on the parents hepline mind you) and went to get help. I got into a day service for help with settling and luckily, I had a young mw who talked absolute sense to me - basically, she told me it didn't matter if she still needed a feed to sleep during the day - as long as nights stayed consistent, daytimes I could whatever worked. In the end, I decided that long walks timed for sleep in the pram - when she was ready for a nap, I'd strap her in and she'd end up having great sleeps - well at least much better than previously (not the 2x2hr long naps that many of the mums in mum's group were having!)

Do whatever works and saves your sanity!

[Sammiejane]

Our day sleeps were terrible until about 14 months.
At around 12 months MJ dropped to one day sleep and she was exhausted all day long as she was still only sleeping 30-45 mins. She will now sleep 1.5-2.5hours which is fantastic (for us both)
We still have trouble settling and i just think thats she is one of those bubbas!

It wont last for ever - try and find peace with the fact that your little one is just more active than others.... it will help your mind set.
Not all babies/toddlers are the same, as with adults - some find it easy to wind down, others do not.
I agree with PP - night time routines are great - but why contain it to nights only - have a routine with your day sleeps as well, story, nappy another story, cuddles then settle. (or whatever works)
If your baby doesnt like being put down - why ??? is the bed cold (try a heatpack in the cot before going down - dont forget to take it out thou) is the room to light? casting shadows? could you move the cot? (we did this with huge success)
If all else fails, just go with the flow, i read an article in the July Melbournes Child called bye bye baby - i was in tears and i realsied that although the fact that your babys needs can be frustrating at time, it is an amaziung time that you will never get back... in several years time they may not even need you to get to sleep or want you - if you savour this time (instead or resent it) it is SOOOOOO much easier...

Hope this helps - i do sympathise, i have been there too

[Tish]

Hi everybody,

Thank you for your replies - they helped to keep me sane when I was waaaaay at the end of my tether.

I have resolved to try the 15 down/15 up thing especially when I'm getting overwrought. Maybe sometimes I'm getting a bit stubborn too in thinking I MUST get him to sleep.

I think that Marcellus you are on to something re the first tired signs thing not working anymore - but the line between tired and overtired seems to have shrunk also. He seems to go from 0 to OVER IT quite quickly these days. Maybe he is now chronically overtired?

Bedtime is now 7pm and has been for quite some weeks. Our routine is cook dinner 5.30, eat 6pm, bath 6.30, reading 6.45, boobs 6.50, bed 7pm. Once in a blue moon he falls asleep feeding (usually when I do also - we feed lying down) but wakes when I detach him. I thought this was quite a good routine - DH sometimes makes bathing a bit too much fun, but DS gets very splasha splasha just on his own LOL.

During the day I'm not so strict with the routine for naps, it's reading, cuddle and whisper, wrap, tuck, kisses/song, mum leaves, cue screaming! I'm not sure the watching me do things tack would work as he is just "into stuff" but I'm willing to give it a try.

Curly your suggestion of getting out triggered one of the best family days I think we've had. When I look at it, his life is pretty boring. After some advice from the sleep school we did, our life revolves around his naps - we feed after he wakes, and I don't feel there is much time between that and next nap to actually get out and do anything, so we stay home a lot. It actually stresses me out a bit. So I've resolved to get out and about with him more even if I feel a bit worried about it or whatever. On playgroup days he really does sleep well so you're on to something.

If I leave him on his own in the cot (actually sometimes before I even get to the door!) he is standing up. He grizzles for a bit (this is ok) which degenerates into tears and screaming (and then I'm in there straight away for consoling). I don't want to let him cry, and I doubt he would decide to sleep anyway. He just fights it. I've seen him nearly fall asleep with me patting him, and shake himself awake as if to say "cr4p, i was nearly asleep!!!!!".

I have accepted that he's not a good day sleeper - I used to long for the 2x 3 hour naps that the "other mums" seem to get. I console myself with the fact that he's a wonderful, lively, interactive, inquisitive, busy little man, and I love that. Just lately these really short naps don't seem to be working for him as much as me. He is crying on waking (sometimes eyes still shut), eyes puffy, yawning, still making ow noises so clearly still needs sleep. As long as I am not exhausted I can keep that in perspective, it was just a really bad week. I am looking into a nanny half day a week to get some space, I clearly need it (I am also trying to work from home, this doesn't help).

Kelebek thank you for your words, which actually made me teary. I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying toddlerhood. Everyone says "it gets harder" so I was starting to figure I just wasn't cut out to be a mum since I'm clearly not coping... I hear myself saying "he's a difficult baby" which sounds like such a cop out when you don't know him the way I do. I'm now holding onto those words and looking forward to the next bit! Toddlerhood!

Sammiejane that's a good back to basics approach. Maybe the room is a bit too light. I might make some darker covers for the windows. And I have had that moment a few times of realising yes this is hard, but wow isn't he small and gorgeous and look how much he needs me. One day he won't as much, every day he is more independent so I try to hang on to that. Thank you for reminding me again though.

I'm interested to know what you guys do to "wind down". I struggle to find activities that he doesn't find stimulating. Sometimes reading doesn't work (tries to snatch/eat the book), or cuddling (bobs for boobs even when not hungry, pulls my hair, snatches glasses etc). He doesn't really feed to sleep reliably either, and it's hard to get him off once asleep - he's quite insistent.

I did stop and take stock of what does work. The pram - not always practical in this crappy weather, but if I walk for long enough can sometimes get 2 cycles, and when we were out on Sunday I mashed him into the sling (feet hanging out the ends LOL) and he slept for an hour like that (after carrying a 11kg baby around for that long I needed a nap too haha). In both the pram and sling he went to sleep without a fight. So I hired a hammock today. I figured maybe he needs the movement to be soothed. Fingers crossed it works.

At the end of the day I just want him to be rested and well. I can tell he's neither at the moment and it's bad for both of us.

Thank you all for your wonderful replies, I did read them but didnt have the energy to reply properly. You did get me through some horrible horrible days.

All this time also I have had a copy of the no cry nap solution sitting beside the bed, but i've been too exhausted to read it. How ironic is that? So I'm going to make some time with DH to read it this weekend.

One way or another hopefully things will look up for Mr Moo shortly!!

Thanks again

Tish
xx

[marcellus]

I'm glad we were helpful to you Tish. Sometimes we just need to stop and get some perspective, hey?
It does sound like he's overtired - the best thing is do whatever works. Walking/slings/feed to sleep, whatever. try to break that cycle.
With DS I started getting into the habit of walking him mid morning and mid afternoon when he was having 2 sleeps, or going out somewhere at those times, then timing the return for when he was most tired. Sometimes he slept inthe pram or car, but generally he was awake but sleepy so that made it a lot easier to get him to sleep. once we did this for 3-4 days in a row, he got into the habit and it became a new routine. It changes all the time though, and that's one of the challenges i think.
Re bed routine, you could try bringing it forward by 30 mins or so, if you want, just to see if it makes a difference. We eat dinner at 4:30 most days! which is ridiculous, but oh well

Anyway, take care and hope you both get some rest soon.

[Sammiejane]

I agree with Marcellus.
When MJ was about 8mths old she was eating dinner at about 4.30... Gradually it has been pushed back by sleep times and snacks as she has gotten older, but most days we have dinner (all together) at 5.30pm.
finished before 6pm, straight in the bath, out at 6.20-6.45 (depends on how she is in the bath) change, read in her bed room, feed and then bed. Most nights she is in bed between 7pm and 8pm depends on the day and her day sleeps.
I still dont walk out of the room until MJ is asleep... sometimes i am in with her for a while. I take her cues though, sometimes she wants me to sit there quietly next to her, other days she wants patting and singing... Sometimes she crys before sleep and she ususally always crys when she wakes.
Winding down didnt always work with us too - sometimes she seems to get more and more hyper... basically this was when she was tired - the more they are tired the more they seem to jump around and get excited.


Honestly you little one sounds very similar to how MJ was... she never slept longer than 45 mins and honestly i felt like i must be doing it all wrong cos everyone else seem to have a good sleeper and then there was us (maybe we were just the honest ones thou!!!)
The other thing i started to do was pre empt the sleep sycle, so for a week i would creep into MJ's room and sit next to the cot, as soon as she stirred i would pat and shush and she usually went straight into the next cycle. I did this when she dropped to one sleep and was still only haveing a 45min nap - after a week, i could stay out of the room, but was nearby in case she did waken - i would quickly go in, and try and resettle.
Sometimes she would try and get up and it would take a bit of settling, but i KNEW that she was still tired and needed more sleep and so perservered - but if she got really upset i stopped.
Dont know if any of these things will hel[.

But it sounds pretty normal to me - and yes it does get better, but it takes time

[Curly]

Tish - like others have said - "do what works". If it's the pram and the sling for a little bit to get some longer sleeps into him - do whatever you have to do.

We are another family that does dinner at 4.30pm.

In terms of tired signs - we found with DS that we had to strike like ninjas because there was a very narrow window of opportunity to get DS to go to sleep - we worked out we had about 15 minutes max from the first yawn to get him into his sleeping bag and start settling him off to sleep, otherwise we would have to wait another couple of hours till he was soooo exhausted before we knew we would have any kind of success.

Re feeding off to sleep - I did that for every single sleep and every time he woke up during the night until he was 18 months old! I would let him go till he was practically in a coma. That meant I could be sitting there for ages with him just kind of "nibbling" away until I could detach him without him being aware of it. I used to just try and chill out to his lullaby CD and enjoy the peace and quiet. I could never leave him in the cot to just drift off. DD yes, DS no way.

I would also like to add that I too also have enjoyed DS' toddlerhood far more than his babyhood. I had all the wailing banshees telling me "just wait till he's a toddler" "just you wait till he's walking" "just wait till you can't shut him up" etc etc.

None of it has come to pass. The day DS started walking my life changed tremendously for the better. I didn't have to carry him, he was so happy to toddle along beside me. He never runs away from me at the shops. He has truly been a delight. Yes, he's had his moments - we had a small biting phase and a small headbutting phase but we came down hard on that and it was very shortlived. He's never been aggressive with other toddlers, no hitting or kicking or snatching of toys. I have very rarely raised my voice to him. I am the only mummy I know who DOESN'T own a "Toddler Taming" type of book. I just haven't needed it.

Good luck Tish! Just remember that you aren't alone, that there are other mummies out there trying desperately to get their babies to sleep too. And remember to ignore the comments from people who have never had a difficult sleeper or imply it is because you are a first-time mum "and don't really know what you're doing". They just don't get it. I can honestly say that after having DD, I can understand why people who have never had a difficult sleeper think it's the mother's fault. I reckon it is 90% down to the temperament of the baby.

[Tish]

Hi guys

I've been trying to make sure that his bed time is stricly 6.45-7pm. It's only been a few nights so hard to tell. Plus it's been a full moon, and I think he's having a growth spurt (wants to feed at 2 or 3am rather than 6am). So I'm just accepting that's what nights are for the time being LOL. Between full moon, growth spurt and teeth poor little bugger has a lot to deal with!!

And that's ok, because...... day sleeps are heaps better in the last day or so! I hired an amby and it turned up the other day. The biggest difference is that he *wants* to go in there (only because it's bouncy and fun, but hey whatever works!) , whereas he would start screaming 3 inches above the cot mattress because he didn't want to be there. After a bit of self bouncing he wears himself out and goes to sleep. **** what a relief! What an amazing contraption - when he wriggles or stirs it jiggles and bounces, so he goes back to sleep. I don't know why I didn't get one of these months ago..... Even if this only works for a few weeks it will be wonderful. Yesterday he had 2x 1.5 hour sleeps with no crying or fighting (I had to bounce him after 45 mins, but he didn't cry). As you suggested Sammiejane after 40 mins I just sat by his door waiting for the stir, ready to swoop.

Curly I find your comments really heartening - lol @ wailing banshees.

Thanks guys again for the support and ideas, and mostly the kick in the butt I needed to actually start doing something to make his sleeping better rather than just complaining about it.

Hopefully after a few days of good day sleeps (I don't think he's ever done 2x 1.5 before) we'll both start to feel a bit better. I'm completely exhausted and fighting with DH about sleep - not a good place to be.

Tish
xx

[marcellus]

Ah, this is good!
It's true, I think, that some kids are just more sensitive to things than others that may result in disturbed sleep. Seems like there's always something keeping DS from sleeping!
All you can do sometimes is just make the most of whatever you can get!
And, think I may have to get one of those amby things next time

[Tish]

Most definitely - and I know where he gets it from - I'm exactly the same. I think like someone said earlier, we're used to 30 or 40 mins - anything more than that is wonderful.

OMG re the amby. Early days like I said, but he just did 2.25 hours - I don't think he's ever done that? They're cheap to hire - at least I can give it back if it stops working. The brochure says kids up to 2 years use them - maybe would work for you too?